I'm posting this because I reckon it's worth attending, especially for Vietnam veterans.
I know a few lurk here.
From the promo -
This concert was created by some of Australia’s leading composers and will be performed by Little Pattie, Normie Rowe, John Schumann, the RMC Duntroon Band, Canberra Symphony Orchestra and choirs. It will take audiences on a musical journey, with 12 popular songs from the era and orchestral movements that will respond to stories or events that shaped our perceptions or experiences.
In honouring service and acknowledging pain, dislocation and the terrible cost of war, the Vietnam Requiem will be performed as a gift to our veterans.
It may also help in the process of reconciliation.
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32 comments:
"reconciliation"
Of whom?
John Grey.
"reconciliation"
Of whom?
Of those Regs who believed that they were fighting the good fight against Communism, and were betrayed by the Government, with those like me who knew we were political collateral but went along with it because we had no real choice.
Read about it here - https://independentaustralia.net/australia/australia-display/reflections-on-the-fall,4404
Reconciling with whom?
I haven't come across any of "those like you". The men I know accepted their lot and got on with the job given them and haven't spent the time you have wasted proclaiming how hard done by they supposedly were. You passed on two opportunities to avoid the tour and haven't stopped whinging about how bad a choice you made. Lack of intestinal fortitude is your greatest claim to fame but you can't see it, where everyone else that has read your continual attempts at laying the blame on others, can. You really need to get over yourself, mate. I use the term mate because like you I am a Pig from days gone by.
you have wasted proclaiming how hard done by they supposedly were.
I have done very well out of my service, despite the fact that I did not volunteer. Benefits have included a Rehab scholarship which set me on the path to two degrees and a post-graduate qualification, a war service loan, and of course, a Gold card which arrived at 70.
The other great benefit was the bond with men from my subunit which endures after 50 plus years.
You passed on two opportunities to avoid the tour and haven't stopped whinging about how bad a choice you made.
What "opportunities" were these? I must have missed something.
I did make two attempts to avoid infantry and Vietnam, by applying for Education Corps, and putting in a preference for a battalion about to return from Vietnam, but was unsuccessful in both. Is that your definition of "choice"?
Lack of intestinal fortitude is your greatest claim to fame but you can't see it, where everyone else that has read your continual attempts at laying the blame on others, can.
The "blame" for what?
It's easy to call someone a coward because you disagree with their opinion. Apart from that, what is your justification? You did not serve with me in my section, so would have no idea how I behaved. I have the courage to be honest about the experience, rather than attempt to rationalise it afterwards.
You should do the same.
"I have done very well out of my service."...as you were and are entitled to due to your service. And still you whinge about the very reason that made that possible.
"What "opportunities" were these?"...I will remind you again...
1...Did not go down the path of a conscientious objector.
2...Did not have the gonads to front Ron directly, as Stan did.
"The "blame" for what?" conscripting you and subsequently sending you on that all expenses paid tour of South Vietnam. You know the two opportunities where you could have objected but didn't was due to the effort of someone else rather than the lack of effort by yourself.
"Coward"...your word, not mine. At no time have I derided your behaviour as a digger, so your point about me not being in your section seems pointless, and what makes you think I wasn't?
And still you whinge about the very reason that made that possible.
Pointing out the facts of history (that the second national service scheme conscripted a small proportion of 20 year-olds to fight on foreign soil in peacetime) is not "whinging".
Even in the second world war, when the country was under existential threat, the militia were deployed only to Australian mandated territory.
Did not go down the path of a conscientious objector.
Because I wasn't. In order to be accepted by a magistrate as a CO, you needed to declare that you opposed all war. I didn't - only our presence in Vietnam.
Did not have the gonads to front Ron directly, as Stan did.
Had I done so, the outcome would have been exactly the same as it was for him, viz, a command decision overridden by a political decision.
You know the two opportunities where you could have objected but didn't was due to the effort of someone else rather than the lack of effort by yourself.
You'll have to explain that - it makes absolutely no sense.
so your point about me not being in your section seems pointless, and what makes you think I wasn't?
That's moot, given that you're anonymous. How do I know you served with 7 RAR at all?
The elephant in the room - Bob's excuses for not taking the CMF option to avoid conscription.
Bob's listing of the benefits granted to him by Australian taxpayers should be "reconciliation" enough.
John Grey
The elephant in the room - Bob's excuses for not taking the CMF option to avoid conscription.
CMF was never an option for me.
I had to make a decision about taking that option before I had to register for the fifth National Service ballot drawn on 10 March 1967. At that time there were no CMF units operating within cooee of Texas (Qld) which was home.
I was deferred until 1969, and even by that time pressure from what was then the Country Party was only just beginning to get remote and rural units set up, but that was two years too late.
You can read all about it in Parliamentary Hansard.
And on the question of choice, or volunteering you might also be interested in this - Volunteers with a legal impediment: Australian national service and the question of overseas service in Vietnam - Ben Morris & Noah Riseman Pages 266-286 | Published online: 11 Jun 2019.
In September 2010 at the Mildura RSL, in front of a group of veterans, a former soldier from 7 RAR claimed it was a myth that soldiers serving in Vietnam were volunteers. This veteran claimed he was forced to go to Vietnam, but when Morris offered him a chance to record his story on tape, the veteran declined. It is common among veterans whose memories vary from the dominant narrative not to want to disagree publicly with the mythology. They fear the backlash, just as historians who have dared to challenge the Anzac mythology have received vitriolic responses from conservative media commentators and online trolls. Yet the question still remains as to why so many Vietnam veterans are so defensive about the proposition that they were all volunteers. This myth, like so many other myths of Australian military history, stems from Australia’s Anzac legend. As historian Craig Stockings summarises: ‘The Anzac legend, in its need to link the idea of “national character” to past military exploits, sometimes requires interpretations of events that diverge from what might be called objective or detached historical inquiry’.
The Author, Ben Morris, served as a platoon commander with 5 RAR in SVN from 18 January 1967 to 1 May 1967. Because he is investigating the same issues through oral histories as I am, I would have loved to talk with him about his research, but he died on 14th July 2019.
You need to be careful with elephants.
They have very long memories.
Bob's listing of the benefits granted to him by Australian taxpayers should be "reconciliation" enough.
Reconciliation with the bulk of the Australian people happened a long time ago, beginning with the Welcome Home March in 1987. Reconciliation with (mostly) regular soldiers who believed they were fighting Communism, and that they were betrayed by the government is a much more difficult proposition.
"Pointing out the facts of history"...with heavy emphasis on the history of 1735069 and why he wasn't enamoured with his service.
"to Australian mandated territory" I guess that includes Papua New Guinea where they fought heroically.
"Had I done so"...ah, but you didn't even try and you have been denying, for years, that the option was on the table.
You are right about my anonymity. Did it cross your mind that I may not want anyone to know that I may have been that close to you? Whether you believe I served in Seven, or not, is of little relevance.
So there is an uncorroborated record of some unknown ex7RAR digger giving a little speech at an RSL in Victoria to a group of persons who no doubt had been having a few ales, about the veracity of whether Conscripts volunteered to serve in Vietnam. How convincing.
I volunteered, as did many of the 2nd intake of 1969, who volunteered to go straight to 7 RAR who were preparing to go to Vietnam in 1970, and by doing so avoided Corps training and trained with 7RAR for deployment. Obviously I cannot speak for others not involved in this particular voluntary group, but then neither can you speak for the majority of conscripts.
We didn't see you at the march through Sydney on 10/03/1971.
As I said - Bob has a bagful of excuses for not taking the CMF option. They have been trotted out once again.
He could have made it work if he wanted to.
Bob took his chances with call up and then allocation and lost both times.
His current hatred of conservative governments stems from an inner loathing because he knows he should have been true to his ideals.
He wasn't and now he hates himself and now projects that hate on to the world.
John Grey
"Reconciliation with (mostly) regular soldiers who believed they were fighting Communism"
Of course the fight was against communism.
Even your own favourite research source says "The Viet Cong are estimated to have killed about 36,725 South Vietnamese soldiers between 1957 and 1972.
The Viet Kong, officially known as the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam, was an armed communist political revolutionary organization."
John Grey
Causes of the Vietnam war, Encyclopedia Britannica:
"An insurgency of communist Vietnamese (known as the Viet Cong) against the South Vietnam army beginning in the late 1950s that grew into an ongoing guerrilla campaign."
Those soldiers were right. They were fighting communism.
John Grey.
Obviously I cannot speak for others not involved in this particular voluntary group, but then neither can you speak for the majority of conscripts.
I speak only for myself, and the facts of history.
Sorting the facts from the myths is useful and enjoyable.
He wasn't and now he hates himself and now projects that hate on to the world.
John Grey indulges in anonymous remote psychological diagnosis - pr perhaps, projection.
The Viet Kong (sic), officially known as the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam, was an armed communist political revolutionary organization."
First up, you're getting confused with that oversized gorilla who climbed the Empire State Building. He never made it to Vietnam. It's "Viet Cong".
Secondly, you don't destroy a nationalist movement by fighting it. That has been noted in history for over a century. The point was proved again on 30th April 1975.
Those soldiers were right. They were fighting communism.
Vietnamese were fighting Vietnamese.
It was actually none of our business.
Got 'im, hook line and sinker.
Bob goes off on the "Kong" deliberate mistake and simultaneously can't spell the kindergarten level word "or".
It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
John Grey
"Vietnamese were fighting Vietnamese."
Getting close, Bob.
Now all you have to do is add in "communist" Vietnamese and your transformation will be complete.
It seems your exposure to the truth is working its power.
John Grey
the "Kong" deliberate mistake
Child.
Now all you have to do is add in "communist" Vietnamese and your transformation will be complete.
That wonderful multi-purpose word.
If reason and logic fail, simply insert it into the discussion and you don't have to make sense.
This is an intriguing blog, but it's spoilt by two posters. One is a dingbat who must have lots of time on his hands. The other is a Vietnam veteran who has issues.
There are are only two regular posters...or are you coming to the party, Anon. 3 May 2021 at 11.14?
Since I am the only one admitting time in the same Battalion haunted by 1735099 and you make rather general statements about me, pray tell Doctor what "issues" would you diagnose in my case?
The only people who don't want reconciliation are those who profit from war and conflict.
Pericles
"One is a dingbat who must have lots of time on his hands"
That's very disrespectful to Bob.
John Grey
"It was actually none of our business."
Whilst your rabid pro-communist politics won't let you understand it, there WAS a huge amount of fear that communism was sweeping down towards Australia.
Not just at the level of military strategists but also in the population.
The success of America and her allies in Vietnam was causing the Russian and Chinese governments to recognise that expansion towards the south would be resisted. The war may have been "lost" but the big picture saw a win to America.
Thankfully, that "lebensraum" policy was scuttled thanks to the governments who took the decision to stop communist expansion. You played a role in that.
John Grey
Whilst your rabid pro-communist politics won't let you understand it, there WAS a huge amount of fear that communism was sweeping down towards Australia. Not just at the level of military strategists but also in the population.
And it was precisely this "huge amount of fear" whipped up by the then government that delivered political power in the late 70s through DLP preferences.
Eventually, the voters saw through it, but it cost a great deal of blood and treasure.
The dominoes didn't fall, and the debil-debil Communists didn't take over and seep downwards using gravity to take over Oz.
I see Bob is keen to denigrate President Trump with his invented "Dettol Donny" attempt at abuse.
It's interesting to see on the Dettol web site this claim:
"Following extensive third-party laboratory testing, specific Dettol family of brands products have demonstrated effectiveness (>99.9% inactivation) against 2019 Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19), SARS-CoV-2 when used in accordance with the directions for use."
Even Bob's abuse is poorly researched.
John Grey
Dettol doesn't recommend injecting their product - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx6gIV5pDls
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